Howdy,

I was interested in some other pilots' 'takes' on the following. I was
up with a student a few days ago, when another CFI I know (flying out
of the same airport I do) also with a student had an issue with an air
traffic controller. We were both flying out of airport A, which is a
non-towered airport near a fairly large city. Airport B is a class D
(non federal towered) municipal airport about 10 miles South of airport
A. The controllers at airport B have a reputation as kind of prickly.
The following is the jist of the conversation:

Cessna "Airport B tower, this is Cessna 123, 2000 off of airport A, 10
miles North, inbound landing with kilo"

Tower "Roger, Cessna, you will be number 2 for runway 21R, follow
Cherokee traffic at your 11 O'Clock, you also have Cherokee traffic
transitioning at your 2 O'Clock, and Skyhawk traffic inbound on the ILS
for the parallel. Maintain visual separation."

Cessna "Roger, have the Cherokee traffic, will follow him in, visual
separation"

A couple minutes later

Tower "Cessna, what are you doing out there?"

Cessna "Tower, that Cherokee isn't making much progress, we're making a
couple 360s for spacing"

Tower (in a nasty tone) "Negative Cessna! You're following the wrong
Cherokee. You need my permission before making any maneuvers like
that. If you are inbound, you need to be a direct heading *to* my
airport. You can't be doing that kind of stuff without telling me."

[pause]

Cessna "Tower, I was following the Cherokee that was at my 11. Sorry
if I got the wrong one. But sir, I am VFR, *outside* of your
airspace...if I feel the need to do a 360 to maintain safe spacing,
that's exactly what I will do...I'm outside of your airspace. I don't
need your permission to do *anything* until I enter it. Turning 210 for
landing now"

The controller didn't say anything else, expect a gruff 'Cleared for
landing 21R'. I haven't talked to the other CFI about this yet. The
reason I am asking is that my student (already scared to talk to ATC)
is even *more* scared now, and asked me about it.

I told him that the pilot was technically right...if you are in
uncontrolled airspace, and are responsible for maintaining visual
seperation from other aircraft, then you can certainly make 'normal'
maneuvers to do that. And I told him that a Class D tower controller
doesn't have any say about what you do outside of his airspace.

I also told him that it usually wasn't a good idea to have an
altercation like that on the radio. That if the pilot wanted to talk to
the controller about that, he should have waited until he was on the
ground, and called the tower and asked to speak with a supervisor. I
also told him that the other CFI 'probably' should have told the
controller what he was doing as a matter of 'courtesy', and that if he
wasn't absolutely sure which Cherokee to follow, he should have told
the controller that he'd remain outside of his airspace until the tower
told him the traffic was clear, and then turn in. Plus, it isnt a good
idea to alienate the ATC guys in your own area....they can make life
'interesting' sometimes.

But the tower controller didn't tell him to copy a number (altho maybe
he got that on the ground. But I asked a few of the other CFIs I work
with about this..most agreed with me, but a couple thought the pilot
was wrong for various reasons.
So...what is your take on this?

Cheers,

Cap

Your recommendations are exactly what I do.
If the controller gets huffy, acknowledge the new instructions.
When you get on the ground, call and talk to the supervisor.
The FAA has a reporting program in place to file complaints about ATC
issues such as this. (The paper with the information is in my kitchen,
buried at this time.)

wrote:
> I told him that the pilot was technically right...if you are in
> uncontrolled airspace, and are responsible for maintaining visual
> seperation from other aircraft, then you can certainly make 'normal'
> maneuvers to do that. And I told him that a Class D tower controller
> doesn't have any say about what you do outside of his airspace.
> I also told him that it usually wasn't a good idea to have an
> altercation like that on the radio. That if the pilot wanted to talk to
> the controller about that, he should have waited until he was on the
> ground, and called the tower and asked to speak with a supervisor. I
> also told him that the other CFI 'probably' should have told the
> controller what he was doing as a matter of 'courtesy', and that if he
> wasn't absolutely sure which Cherokee to follow, he should have told
> the controller that he'd remain outside of his airspace until the tower
> told him the traffic was clear, and then turn in. Plus, it isnt a good
> idea to alienate the ATC guys in your own area....they can make life
> 'interesting' sometimes.
> But the tower controller didn't tell him to copy a number (altho maybe
> he got that on the ground. But I asked a few of the other CFIs I work
> with about this..most agreed with me, but a couple thought the pilot
> was wrong for various reasons.
> So...what is your take on this?

Once in radio contact with ATC, whether inside of that controller's airspace
or not, the pilot should get permission before doing anything like a 360. He
(in this case) has no idea of the controller's traffic management plan.

I agree that the best thing to do is comply with instructions and hash it
out on the ground. Ask the controller for a phone number and his initials.

Bob Gardner

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Howdy,
>
> I was interested in some other pilots' 'takes' on the following. I was
> up with a student a few days ago, when another CFI I know (flying out
> of the same airport I do) also with a student had an issue with an air
> traffic controller. We were both flying out of airport A, which is a
> non-towered airport near a fairly large city. Airport B is a class D
> (non federal towered) municipal airport about 10 miles South of airport
> A. The controllers at airport B have a reputation as kind of prickly.
> The following is the jist of the conversation:
>
> Cessna "Airport B tower, this is Cessna 123, 2000 off of airport A, 10
> miles North, inbound landing with kilo"
>
> Tower "Roger, Cessna, you will be number 2 for runway 21R, follow
> Cherokee traffic at your 11 O'Clock, you also have Cherokee traffic
> transitioning at your 2 O'Clock, and Skyhawk traffic inbound on the ILS
> for the parallel. Maintain visual separation."
>
> Cessna "Roger, have the Cherokee traffic, will follow him in, visual
> separation"
>
> A couple minutes later
>
> Tower "Cessna, what are you doing out there?"
>
> Cessna "Tower, that Cherokee isn't making much progress, we're making a
> couple 360s for spacing"
>
> Tower (in a nasty tone) "Negative Cessna! You're following the wrong
> Cherokee. You need my permission before making any maneuvers like
> that. If you are inbound, you need to be a direct heading *to* my
> airport. You can't be doing that kind of stuff without telling me."
>
> [pause]
>
> Cessna "Tower, I was following the Cherokee that was at my 11. Sorry
> if I got the wrong one. But sir, I am VFR, *outside* of your
> airspace...if I feel the need to do a 360 to maintain safe spacing,
> that's exactly what I will do...I'm outside of your airspace. I don't
> need your permission to do *anything* until I enter it. Turning 210 for
> landing now"
>
> The controller didn't say anything else, expect a gruff 'Cleared for
> landing 21R'. I haven't talked to the other CFI about this yet. The
> reason I am asking is that my student (already scared to talk to ATC)
> is even *more* scared now, and asked me about it.
>
> I told him that the pilot was technically right...if you are in
> uncontrolled airspace, and are responsible for maintaining visual
> seperation from other aircraft, then you can certainly make 'normal'
> maneuvers to do that. And I told him that a Class D tower controller
> doesn't have any say about what you do outside of his airspace.
>
> I also told him that it usually wasn't a good idea to have an
> altercation like that on the radio. That if the pilot wanted to talk to
> the controller about that, he should have waited until he was on the
> ground, and called the tower and asked to speak with a supervisor. I
> also told him that the other CFI 'probably' should have told the
> controller what he was doing as a matter of 'courtesy', and that if he
> wasn't absolutely sure which Cherokee to follow, he should have told
> the controller that he'd remain outside of his airspace until the tower
> told him the traffic was clear, and then turn in. Plus, it isnt a good
> idea to alienate the ATC guys in your own area....they can make life
> 'interesting' sometimes.
>
> But the tower controller didn't tell him to copy a number (altho maybe
> he got that on the ground. But I asked a few of the other CFIs I work
> with about this..most agreed with me, but a couple thought the pilot
> was wrong for various reasons.
> So...what is your take on this?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Cap
>

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> I told him that the pilot was technically right...if you are in
> uncontrolled airspace, and are responsible for maintaining visual
> seperation from other aircraft, then you can certainly make 'normal'
> maneuvers to do that. And I told him that a Class D tower controller
> doesn't have any say about what you do outside of his airspace.
>
> I also told him that it usually wasn't a good idea to have an
> altercation like that on the radio. That if the pilot wanted to talk to
> the controller about that, he should have waited until he was on the
> ground, and called the tower and asked to speak with a supervisor. I
> also told him that the other CFI 'probably' should have told the
> controller what he was doing as a matter of 'courtesy', and that if he
> wasn't absolutely sure which Cherokee to follow, he should have told
> the controller that he'd remain outside of his airspace until the tower
> told him the traffic was clear, and then turn in. Plus, it isnt a good
> idea to alienate the ATC guys in your own area....they can make life
> 'interesting' sometimes.
>

I think I would have told the student the same thing. If, however, this is
the third or fourth time that this has happened and previous complaints had
no effect, then I might publicly snarl at the controller.

John Smith wrote :
>Your recommendations are exactly what I do.
>If the controller gets huffy, acknowledge the new instructions.
>When you get on the ground, call and talk to the supervisor.

I agree with John. Airborne is no place to argue or correct ATC if
there's no immediate danger.

Given that, I'd say that the pilot in the original post was
absolutely correct in his assesment. A pilot does not need permission
from a tower controller to manuever outside the class D. Although,
it would be courteous to inform them of the manuever. Particularly if
there is a lot of traffic inbound/outbound to the airport.
John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

Just a somewhat uneducated guess...

You were inbound to an airport and talking to tower. Would it have been too
much trouble to simply key the mic and tell the controller that you were
having spacing problems on the Cherokee, and ask for permission to do your
360's?

Regardless of regulations, regardless of responsibility, isn't tower
providing sequencing at that point? Common sense would tell you that under
those circumstances, if everyone of the aircraft simply started flying
whatever path they wanted to would be an extremely dangerous situation.

You noted: "The controllers at airport B have a reputation as kind of
prickly". If this is an example of the types of situations they are dealing
with, don't you think their attitude might be justified?






> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Howdy,
>
> I was interested in some other pilots' 'takes' on the following. I was
> up with a student a few days ago, when another CFI I know (flying out
> of the same airport I do) also with a student had an issue with an air
> traffic controller. We were both flying out of airport A, which is a
> non-towered airport near a fairly large city. Airport B is a class D
> (non federal towered) municipal airport about 10 miles South of airport
> A. The controllers at airport B have a reputation as kind of prickly.
> The following is the jist of the conversation:
>
> Cessna "Airport B tower, this is Cessna 123, 2000 off of airport A, 10
> miles North, inbound landing with kilo"
>
> Tower "Roger, Cessna, you will be number 2 for runway 21R, follow
> Cherokee traffic at your 11 O'Clock, you also have Cherokee traffic
> transitioning at your 2 O'Clock, and Skyhawk traffic inbound on the ILS
> for the parallel. Maintain visual separation."
>
> Cessna "Roger, have the Cherokee traffic, will follow him in, visual
> separation"
>
> A couple minutes later
>
> Tower "Cessna, what are you doing out there?"
>
> Cessna "Tower, that Cherokee isn't making much progress, we're making a
> couple 360s for spacing"
>
> Tower (in a nasty tone) "Negative Cessna! You're following the wrong
> Cherokee. You need my permission before making any maneuvers like
> that. If you are inbound, you need to be a direct heading *to* my
> airport. You can't be doing that kind of stuff without telling me."
>
> [pause]
>
> Cessna "Tower, I was following the Cherokee that was at my 11. Sorry
> if I got the wrong one. But sir, I am VFR, *outside* of your
> airspace...if I feel the need to do a 360 to maintain safe spacing,
> that's exactly what I will do...I'm outside of your airspace. I don't
> need your permission to do *anything* until I enter it. Turning 210 for
> landing now"
>
> The controller didn't say anything else, expect a gruff 'Cleared for
> landing 21R'. I haven't talked to the other CFI about this yet. The
> reason I am asking is that my student (already scared to talk to ATC)
> is even *more* scared now, and asked me about it.
>
> I told him that the pilot was technically right...if you are in
> uncontrolled airspace, and are responsible for maintaining visual
> seperation from other aircraft, then you can certainly make 'normal'
> maneuvers to do that. And I told him that a Class D tower controller
> doesn't have any say about what you do outside of his airspace.
>
> I also told him that it usually wasn't a good idea to have an
> altercation like that on the radio. That if the pilot wanted to talk to
> the controller about that, he should have waited until he was on the
> ground, and called the tower and asked to speak with a supervisor. I
> also told him that the other CFI 'probably' should have told the
> controller what he was doing as a matter of 'courtesy', and that if he
> wasn't absolutely sure which Cherokee to follow, he should have told
> the controller that he'd remain outside of his airspace until the tower
> told him the traffic was clear, and then turn in. Plus, it isnt a good
> idea to alienate the ATC guys in your own area....they can make life
> 'interesting' sometimes.
>
> But the tower controller didn't tell him to copy a number (altho maybe
> he got that on the ground. But I asked a few of the other CFIs I work
> with about this..most agreed with me, but a couple thought the pilot
> was wrong for various reasons.
> So...what is your take on this?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Cap
>

The CFI must have thought he was on a Usenet newsgroup.

The sensible response would have been, "Roger."

Don

I am not a CFI or even commercial rated (yet). I have had similar
situations where I fly. I've had approach chew me out because my IFR
plan had just expired (hey, who would have expected having to sit for
30 minutes waiting for 10 aircraft to land at a private field). Notice,
not a clearance, but flight plan. We were going to activate in the air
since it was VFR conditions. All we would have needed to do was contact
FSS and re-enter it. The CFII beside me had been a controller and told
me that the controller was out of line.

My suggestions are: (1) ASRA filing -- you don't have to be the
involved pilot(s). This will get someones attention to a problem. (2)
Contact the FSDO and/or ADO. File a complaint about the behaviors of
the controllers. This will also get things corrected.

IMHO there is a reason that some people are NON-FED controllers. They
couldn't hack it within the FAA or USMIL. These people, in my
experience, tend to have an attitude.

Lastly, mic-fright is what kept me from getting my Instrument rating
for so long. And why when flying places, I would actually go well out
of my way to avoid "C" and "B" airspace. Meeting with FAA personnel in
WINGS programs have allowed some of us to get them to understand that
even Instrument pilots get "scared" when calling ground/clearance at
some airfields.

Regards,
Steve.T

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> [...]
> But the tower controller didn't tell him to copy a number (altho maybe
> he got that on the ground. But I asked a few of the other CFIs I work
> with about this..most agreed with me, but a couple thought the pilot
> was wrong for various reasons.
> So...what is your take on this?

Generally, one is required to comply with ATC instructions. Regardless of
whether you're "in their airspace" or not. That said, it doesn't sound like
the tower controller gave any particular instruction that the pilot here
could have been construed as not complying with.

In any case, clearly the pilot was well within his rights, whether he was
within the Class D airspace or not, to maneuver as necessary to avoid other
traffic. IMHO, it was a bad idea to do 360s (especially multiple 360s)
without keeping the controller in the loop by telling them of the plan. But
I don't see any regulatory violation.

In other words: I don't think the pilot violated any federal rules, but he
did violate some basic common sense rules. Between the pilot and the
controller, I think the controller made more/bigger mistakes than the pilot.

I agree with your thoughts that it's not helpful to get into arguments on
the radio. I've had my share of "interesting" moments with ATC, but it
almost never solves anything to make comments on the radio. I just stick to
the important stuff, like clearances and requests and whatnot. But who
knows? Maybe this particular controller, this is just what he needed to get
him thinking the right way. Probably not, but you never know. :)

Pete

On 10 Dec 2004 14:24:54 -0800, wrote:

> So...what is your take on this?

I had something similar happen to me, but I think it was a controller
misunderstanding of my situation or he was having a bad day.

I reside under charlie airspace. I took off, turn out toward the NE
practice area. I listened, approach was jockeying several planes, so I
maintained 500 feet below the floor of charlie airspace. I called in
Approach 43L. Approach didn't acknowledge and about 1 minute later, I
called in again Approach, Sundowner 12345L, one thousand 400 feet 2 miles
north of Madison, headed to the NE practice area. Approach said to me,
43L, you are suppose to call before you leave the ground on 123.90. Squawk
0104. HUH??????? I am doing VFR to the practice area! Never had to call
before wheels up before!

Thoroughly confused, thinking I was calling on the wrong frequency, look at
my com 2 and saw I was on the correct frequency. I keyed the mike up, 43L
listening on 123.90. Because he befuddled me, I had to re-ask the squawk
code, which of course didn't make him any happier. I confirmed the squawk,
and continued on to the practice area.

Personally, I was confused and mad at the same time as I sure didn't expect
the kind of treatment I received. So, I had to say to myself, the less
said the better, get the squawk code and enjoy the flight.

I think the controller must have thought diffently later on his initial
contact with me, as he was nice as pie when I wanted to return to my
airport.

So, in a nutshell, I have to agree with others, there is no time for
arguing on the radio. Do what ATC says, and resolve it on the ground. Of
course, if ATC says something contrary to safety, I would exercise my PIC
duties.

Allen

wrote:


>
> Cessna "Airport B tower, this is Cessna 123, 2000 off of airport A, 10
> miles North, inbound landing with kilo"
>
> Tower "Roger, Cessna, you will be number 2 for runway 21R, follow
> Cherokee traffic at your 11 O'Clock, you also have Cherokee traffic
> transitioning at your 2 O'Clock, and Skyhawk traffic inbound on the ILS
> for the parallel. Maintain visual separation."

All is fine except for the maintain visual separation part. That makes
no sense, even if you did have all the aircraft is sight.


>
> Tower "Cessna, what are you doing out there?"
>
> Cessna "Tower, that Cherokee isn't making much progress, we're making a
> couple 360s for spacing"

Very bad on the Cessna's part.

>
> Tower (in a nasty tone) "Negative Cessna! You're following the wrong
> Cherokee. You need my permission before making any maneuvers like
> that. If you are inbound, you need to be a direct heading *to* my
> airport. You can't be doing that kind of stuff without telling me."

The controller should have made sure the Cessna was following the right
aircraft but he's right about the 360's. Cessna pilot should have
called before starting manuvers like that.


>
> [pause]
>
> Cessna "Tower, I was following the Cherokee that was at my 11. Sorry
> if I got the wrong one. But sir, I am VFR, *outside* of your
> airspace...if I feel the need to do a 360 to maintain safe spacing,
> that's exactly what I will do...I'm outside of your airspace. I don't
> need your permission to do *anything* until I enter it. Turning 210 for
> landing now"

He's technically right but practically wrong.

>
> I also told him that it usually wasn't a good idea to have an
> altercation like that on the radio. That if the pilot wanted to talk to
> the controller about that, he should have waited until he was on the
> ground, and called the tower and asked to speak with a supervisor.


Probably no supervisor at the tower except the tower manager himself.
It would be a good idea to call him and give him the time and let him
listen to the tapes and tell you what he thinks. If this is a recurring
problem ask for a meeting with the manager. If he won't give you one go
over his head to the nearest FAA tower and ask the same thing.


I
> also told him that the other CFI 'probably' should have told the
> controller what he was doing as a matter of 'courtesy',

More for safety than courtesy.


and that if he
> wasn't absolutely sure which Cherokee to follow, he should have told
> the controller that he'd remain outside of his airspace until the tower
> told him the traffic was clear, and then turn in.

Always ask if you're not sure.




Plus, it isnt a good
> idea to alienate the ATC guys in your own area....they can make life
> 'interesting' sometimes.

Yep, we do that.

A Lieberman wrote:


Approach said to me,
> 43L, you are suppose to call before you leave the ground on 123.90. Squawk
> 0104.

To which you reply..."I don't think so, squawk 0104." When they're
clearly wrong I don't hesitate to give them the needle.

91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions. (b) Except in
an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC
instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.

Presumably, the approaching aircraft was in Class E airspace, which is
defined as controlled airspace. Doesn't that obligate the pilot to
follow ATC instructions given to him?

Even if it were Class G airpspace, it's a de facto "area in which air
traffic control is exercised," by the fact that the tower controller is
providing service, and the regulation applies.

It's a given that you have to establish 2-way communication (or make
prior arrangements) before you can enter Class D airspace, and it
follows that if you're not going in to the airspace, you don't need to
contact the controller.

.... but once a pilot contacts a controller, isnt' he obligated to
comply whether he's in that controller's jurisdiction or not?
I can't recall any regulation that indicates otherwise.

Brien K. Meehan wrote:
> 91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions. (b) Except in
> an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC
> instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.
>
> Presumably, the approaching aircraft was in Class E airspace, which is
> defined as controlled airspace. Doesn't that obligate the pilot to
> follow ATC instructions given to him?

No, the class D tower has no more authority in class E as he does in
class G.


>
> Even if it were Class G airpspace, it's a de facto "area in which air
> traffic control is exercised," by the fact that the tower controller is
> providing service, and the regulation applies.

Nope.


>
> ... but once a pilot contacts a controller, isnt' he obligated to
> comply whether he's in that controller's jurisdiction or not?

No and the class D controller shouldn't be trying to control you outside
his airspace.

I would have answered... "you told me to follow the Cherokee, and that is
what I'm trying to do".. maintain visual separation means just that.. the
controller gave the pilot permission to do what is needed to follow the
Cherokee..

Once the tower identified that the Cessna had the wrong Cherokee.. the tower
controller over reacted by berating the pilot about it. The pilot did have
permission to maneuver (see above).

The tower should have just re-issued a new direction (clearance) and let it
go. Granted.. the controllers un professional actions on the radio do not
warrant the CFI's response.

Calls to supervisors on the ground are the order, and if the supervisor
presses the issue. Ask him to pull the tapes, and that you are filing a
HATR.

BT

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
...
> Once in radio contact with ATC, whether inside of that controller's
> airspace or not, the pilot should get permission before doing anything
> like a 360. He (in this case) has no idea of the controller's traffic
> management plan.
>
> I agree that the best thing to do is comply with instructions and hash it
> out on the ground. Ask the controller for a phone number and his initials.
>
> Bob Gardner
>
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> Howdy,
>>
>> I was interested in some other pilots' 'takes' on the following. I was
>> up with a student a few days ago, when another CFI I know (flying out
>> of the same airport I do) also with a student had an issue with an air
>> traffic controller. We were both flying out of airport A, which is a
>> non-towered airport near a fairly large city. Airport B is a class D
>> (non federal towered) municipal airport about 10 miles South of airport
>> A. The controllers at airport B have a reputation as kind of prickly.
>> The following is the jist of the conversation:
>>
>> Cessna "Airport B tower, this is Cessna 123, 2000 off of airport A, 10
>> miles North, inbound landing with kilo"
>>
>> Tower "Roger, Cessna, you will be number 2 for runway 21R, follow
>> Cherokee traffic at your 11 O'Clock, you also have Cherokee traffic
>> transitioning at your 2 O'Clock, and Skyhawk traffic inbound on the ILS
>> for the parallel. Maintain visual separation."
>>
>> Cessna "Roger, have the Cherokee traffic, will follow him in, visual
>> separation"
>>
>> A couple minutes later
>>
>> Tower "Cessna, what are you doing out there?"
>>
>> Cessna "Tower, that Cherokee isn't making much progress, we're making a
>> couple 360s for spacing"
>>
>> Tower (in a nasty tone) "Negative Cessna! You're following the wrong
>> Cherokee. You need my permission before making any maneuvers like
>> that. If you are inbound, you need to be a direct heading *to* my
>> airport. You can't be doing that kind of stuff without telling me."
>>
>> [pause]
>>
>> Cessna "Tower, I was following the Cherokee that was at my 11. Sorry
>> if I got the wrong one. But sir, I am VFR, *outside* of your
>> airspace...if I feel the need to do a 360 to maintain safe spacing,
>> that's exactly what I will do...I'm outside of your airspace. I don't
>> need your permission to do *anything* until I enter it. Turning 210 for
>> landing now"
>>
>> The controller didn't say anything else, expect a gruff 'Cleared for
>> landing 21R'. I haven't talked to the other CFI about this yet. The
>> reason I am asking is that my student (already scared to talk to ATC)
>> is even *more* scared now, and asked me about it.
>>
>> I told him that the pilot was technically right...if you are in
>> uncontrolled airspace, and are responsible for maintaining visual
>> seperation from other aircraft, then you can certainly make 'normal'
>> maneuvers to do that. And I told him that a Class D tower controller
>> doesn't have any say about what you do outside of his airspace.
>>
>> I also told him that it usually wasn't a good idea to have an
>> altercation like that on the radio. That if the pilot wanted to talk to
>> the controller about that, he should have waited until he was on the
>> ground, and called the tower and asked to speak with a supervisor. I
>> also told him that the other CFI 'probably' should have told the
>> controller what he was doing as a matter of 'courtesy', and that if he
>> wasn't absolutely sure which Cherokee to follow, he should have told
>> the controller that he'd remain outside of his airspace until the tower
>> told him the traffic was clear, and then turn in. Plus, it isnt a good
>> idea to alienate the ATC guys in your own area....they can make life
>> 'interesting' sometimes.
>>
>> But the tower controller didn't tell him to copy a number (altho maybe
>> he got that on the ground. But I asked a few of the other CFIs I work
>> with about this..most agreed with me, but a couple thought the pilot
>> was wrong for various reasons.
>> So...what is your take on this?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Cap
>>
>
>

can you get a word in edgewise on the frequency? many times I have not been
able to and had to circle outside his airspace just to get into the flow on
the radios and get permission to proceed. (Initial call up)

BT

"Bill Denton" > wrote in message
...
> Just a somewhat uneducated guess...
>
> You were inbound to an airport and talking to tower. Would it have been
> too
> much trouble to simply key the mic and tell the controller that you were
> having spacing problems on the Cherokee, and ask for permission to do your
> 360's?
>
> Regardless of regulations, regardless of responsibility, isn't tower
> providing sequencing at that point? Common sense would tell you that under
> those circumstances, if everyone of the aircraft simply started flying
> whatever path they wanted to would be an extremely dangerous situation.
>
> You noted: "The controllers at airport B have a reputation as kind of
> prickly". If this is an example of the types of situations they are
> dealing
> with, don't you think their attitude might be justified?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> Howdy,
>>
>> I was interested in some other pilots' 'takes' on the following. I was
>> up with a student a few days ago, when another CFI I know (flying out
>> of the same airport I do) also with a student had an issue with an air
>> traffic controller. We were both flying out of airport A, which is a
>> non-towered airport near a fairly large city. Airport B is a class D
>> (non federal towered) municipal airport about 10 miles South of airport
>> A. The controllers at airport B have a reputation as kind of prickly.
>> The following is the jist of the conversation:
>>
>> Cessna "Airport B tower, this is Cessna 123, 2000 off of airport A, 10
>> miles North, inbound landing with kilo"
>>
>> Tower "Roger, Cessna, you will be number 2 for runway 21R, follow
>> Cherokee traffic at your 11 O'Clock, you also have Cherokee traffic
>> transitioning at your 2 O'Clock, and Skyhawk traffic inbound on the ILS
>> for the parallel. Maintain visual separation."
>>
>> Cessna "Roger, have the Cherokee traffic, will follow him in, visual
>> separation"
>>
>> A couple minutes later
>>
>> Tower "Cessna, what are you doing out there?"
>>
>> Cessna "Tower, that Cherokee isn't making much progress, we're making a
>> couple 360s for spacing"
>>
>> Tower (in a nasty tone) "Negative Cessna! You're following the wrong
>> Cherokee. You need my permission before making any maneuvers like
>> that. If you are inbound, you need to be a direct heading *to* my
>> airport. You can't be doing that kind of stuff without telling me."
>>
>> [pause]
>>
>> Cessna "Tower, I was following the Cherokee that was at my 11. Sorry
>> if I got the wrong one. But sir, I am VFR, *outside* of your
>> airspace...if I feel the need to do a 360 to maintain safe spacing,
>> that's exactly what I will do...I'm outside of your airspace. I don't
>> need your permission to do *anything* until I enter it. Turning 210 for
>> landing now"
>>
>> The controller didn't say anything else, expect a gruff 'Cleared for
>> landing 21R'. I haven't talked to the other CFI about this yet. The
>> reason I am asking is that my student (already scared to talk to ATC)
>> is even *more* scared now, and asked me about it.
>>
>> I told him that the pilot was technically right...if you are in
>> uncontrolled airspace, and are responsible for maintaining visual
>> seperation from other aircraft, then you can certainly make 'normal'
>> maneuvers to do that. And I told him that a Class D tower controller
>> doesn't have any say about what you do outside of his airspace.
>>
>> I also told him that it usually wasn't a good idea to have an
>> altercation like that on the radio. That if the pilot wanted to talk to
>> the controller about that, he should have waited until he was on the
>> ground, and called the tower and asked to speak with a supervisor. I
>> also told him that the other CFI 'probably' should have told the
>> controller what he was doing as a matter of 'courtesy', and that if he
>> wasn't absolutely sure which Cherokee to follow, he should have told
>> the controller that he'd remain outside of his airspace until the tower
>> told him the traffic was clear, and then turn in. Plus, it isnt a good
>> idea to alienate the ATC guys in your own area....they can make life
>> 'interesting' sometimes.
>>
>> But the tower controller didn't tell him to copy a number (altho maybe
>> he got that on the ground. But I asked a few of the other CFIs I work
>> with about this..most agreed with me, but a couple thought the pilot
>> was wrong for various reasons.
>> So...what is your take on this?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Cap
>>
>
>

Class E airspace in general is UNCONTROLLED.. it is only "controlled" for
IFR traffic.. I can fly in Class E all I want and talk to no one.. as long
as I maintain required visual weather minimums..

BT

"Brien K. Meehan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> 91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions. (b) Except in
> an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC
> instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.
>
> Presumably, the approaching aircraft was in Class E airspace, which is
> defined as controlled airspace. Doesn't that obligate the pilot to
> follow ATC instructions given to him?
>
> Even if it were Class G airpspace, it's a de facto "area in which air
> traffic control is exercised," by the fact that the tower controller is
> providing service, and the regulation applies.
>
> It's a given that you have to establish 2-way communication (or make
> prior arrangements) before you can enter Class D airspace, and it
> follows that if you're not going in to the airspace, you don't need to
> contact the controller.
>
> ... but once a pilot contacts a controller, isnt' he obligated to
> comply whether he's in that controller's jurisdiction or not?
> I can't recall any regulation that indicates otherwise.
>

Newps wrote:

> No, the class D tower has no more authority in class E as he does in
> class G.

Who says he has no authority in class E or G airspace?

BTIZ wrote:
> I can fly in Class E all I want and talk to no one.. as long
> as I maintain required visual weather minimums..

Everyone knows that.

.... but if you call a controller and ask for service, you ARE talking
to someone. Aren't you obligated to follow instructions given to you
at that point? What regulation indicates otherwise?

Here is a Canadian take on it.
You can do all the 360's that you want to do - when in uncontrolled
airspace - until you communicate with a controller for the purpose of
entering his/her airspace. After communicating with the controller you
should follow their instructions and advise them of any deviation.from
those instructions. As they have the responsibility for maintaining
separation, they have to know where everyone is and what everyone is
doing.

Tony

In article om>,
wrote:

> Howdy,
>
> I was interested in some other pilots' 'takes' on the following. I was
> up with a student a few days ago, when another CFI I know (flying out
> of the same airport I do) also with a student had an issue with an air
> traffic controller. We were both flying out of airport A, which is a
> non-towered airport near a fairly large city. Airport B is a class D
> (non federal towered) municipal airport about 10 miles South of airport
> A. The controllers at airport B have a reputation as kind of prickly.
> The following is the jist of the conversation:
>
> Cessna "Airport B tower, this is Cessna 123, 2000 off of airport A, 10
> miles North, inbound landing with kilo"
>
> Tower "Roger, Cessna, you will be number 2 for runway 21R, follow
> Cherokee traffic at your 11 O'Clock, you also have Cherokee traffic
> transitioning at your 2 O'Clock, and Skyhawk traffic inbound on the ILS
> for the parallel. Maintain visual separation."
>
> Cessna "Roger, have the Cherokee traffic, will follow him in, visual
> separation"
>
> A couple minutes later
>
> Tower "Cessna, what are you doing out there?"
>
> Cessna "Tower, that Cherokee isn't making much progress, we're making a
> couple 360s for spacing"
>
> Tower (in a nasty tone) "Negative Cessna! You're following the wrong
> Cherokee. You need my permission before making any maneuvers like
> that. If you are inbound, you need to be a direct heading *to* my
> airport. You can't be doing that kind of stuff without telling me."
>
> [pause]
>
> Cessna "Tower, I was following the Cherokee that was at my 11. Sorry
> if I got the wrong one. But sir, I am VFR, *outside* of your
> airspace...if I feel the need to do a 360 to maintain safe spacing,
> that's exactly what I will do...I'm outside of your airspace. I don't
> need your permission to do *anything* until I enter it. Turning 210 for
> landing now"
>
> The controller didn't say anything else, expect a gruff 'Cleared for
> landing 21R'. I haven't talked to the other CFI about this yet. The
> reason I am asking is that my student (already scared to talk to ATC)
> is even *more* scared now, and asked me about it.
>
> I told him that the pilot was technically right...if you are in
> uncontrolled airspace, and are responsible for maintaining visual
> seperation from other aircraft, then you can certainly make 'normal'
> maneuvers to do that. And I told him that a Class D tower controller
> doesn't have any say about what you do outside of his airspace.
>
> I also told him that it usually wasn't a good idea to have an
> altercation like that on the radio. That if the pilot wanted to talk to
> the controller about that, he should have waited until he was on the
> ground, and called the tower and asked to speak with a supervisor. I
> also told him that the other CFI 'probably' should have told the
> controller what he was doing as a matter of 'courtesy', and that if he
> wasn't absolutely sure which Cherokee to follow, he should have told
> the controller that he'd remain outside of his airspace until the tower
> told him the traffic was clear, and then turn in. Plus, it isnt a good
> idea to alienate the ATC guys in your own area....they can make life
> 'interesting' sometimes.
>
> But the tower controller didn't tell him to copy a number (altho maybe
> he got that on the ground. But I asked a few of the other CFIs I work
> with about this..most agreed with me, but a couple thought the pilot
> was wrong for various reasons.
> So...what is your take on this?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Cap




--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

tony roberts wrote:
> Here is a Canadian take on it.
<snip>
> After communicating with the controller you
> should follow their instructions and advise them of any
deviation.from
> those instructions. As they have the responsibility for maintaining
> separation, they have to know where everyone is and what everyone is
> doing.
>
In the U.S., the class D tower controller is not responsible for
separation in the class D airspace. Only on the runways. That should
give a U.S. pilot more leeway in a situation as described in the
original post. Since the tower controller is not responsible for
maintaining separation between aircraft, I'm more inclined to take
action on my own to ensure that separation is maintained. The caveat
being that I will inform the tower of what I'm doing and why.
John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

Brien K. Meehan wrote:

> Newps wrote:
>
>
>>No, the class D tower has no more authority in class E as he does in
>>class G.
>
>
> Who says he has no authority in class E or G airspace?
>

Who says he DOES? Towers do not have authority outside the confines of
their airspace. Even Approach controls and centers do not have authority
outside their designated airspace.

Dave

On 10 Dec 2004 15:32:48 -0800, wrote in
m>::

>Lastly, mic-fright is what kept me from getting my Instrument rating
>for so long.

May I humbly suggest you purchase a copy of Bob Gardener's book: Say
Again, Please. Here's a link:
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=1540708&sourceid=1500000000000001827190&dest=9999999997

I'm amazed at all the responses in this thread to "Call the supervisor once
on the ground".

Although I agree that arguments or disagreements should be held over the
phone or in person, rather than over the air, I totally disagree that the
first thing you should do is call the supervisor.

I've been flying for many years and much of it in and out of extremely busy
airspace and there have been a few instance where I've been asked to call
the tower, and some where I've taken it up on my self to call. Some of them
my fault and some of them the controllers.

But the point is, I have never been called by a supervisor, and I have never
called a supervisor. I have always been able to speak directly to the
controller involved and settle it on the spot with out it going any further.
I know I'm happy it's been done like that and I'm sure there are a few
controllers out there that appreciate the same.

For me I have learned just as valuable a lesson by talking to the controller
without it having to have escalate in to anything else. I would suggest
that anyone who has a beef with a controller try talking directly to that
controller first. Then after that if you are not satisfied, consider
calling a supervisor.

JMHO,
PJ

============================================
Here's to the duck who swam a lake and never lost a feather,
May sometime another year, we all be back together.
JJW
============================================

Actually this thread reminds me of a some what funny incident that happened
to me once at Merrill field in Anchorage.

Merrill has a published pattern (which is some what tight in comparison to
most other airports) because of all the other aircraft activity in such
close proximity. Merrill is also a very busy airport. It used to be rated
the busiest general aviation airport in the US, but I have no idea if it
still holds that honor.

Anyway, a regular pain to pilots who know and follow the published pattern,
are pilots who fly huge, 747 patterns which ultimately mess up the timing of
everyone else attempting to fly the published pattern. Amazingly there are
two flight schools on the field who are notorious for teaching their
students this '747' pattern.

One day I was giving tailwheel instruction to a student and following behind
one of the other schools planes, which also had a student and instructor on
board. I was in a slow plane, a super cub, but because I was flying the
published pattern and much closer in that the 747 student in his C152, I was
gaining on him on each lap.

Finally about the 4th time around the controller asked me if I saw the other
traffic in the pattern ahead of me. (He was technically ahead of me, but
about a mile to my right - about 2 o'clock)

I replied that I had him insight to which the controller became rather
snotty and made a point to make sure that I knew that I was supposed to be
FOLLOWING that aircraft. I made no verbal response, but looked behind to my
right and then made a hard right turn, 90 degrees from my downwind heading
and started flying south.

After flying almost 1 mile the controller again called me and very upset
said "WHAT ARE YOU DOING?"

I calmly responded "Following the other aircraft in the pattern"

The next words out of the controllers mouth was "other aircraft, bring all
your downwind legs in about a mile, your to far out".

I continued flying with my student for about another half hour or so and
when we landed the controller asked me to call the tower. I called him up
and he apologized.

No harm, no foul. We're all human, we all make mistakes, we should help
each other out and learn from them.

PJ

============================================
Here's to the duck who swam a lake and never lost a feather,
May sometime another year, we all be back together.
JJW
============================================

Wasn't the instruction given to maintain visual seperation? Isn't doing a
360 to do that following that instruction?

mike regish

"Brien K. Meehan" > wrote in message
>
> ... but if you call a controller and ask for service, you ARE talking
> to someone. Aren't you obligated to follow instructions given to you
> at that point? What regulation indicates otherwise?
>

How can you talk to the controller on the telephone while he is working
traffic?

PJ Hunt wrote:
> But the point is, I have never been called by a supervisor, and I have never
> called a supervisor. I have always been able to speak directly to the
> controller involved and settle it on the spot with out it going any further.
> I know I'm happy it's been done like that and I'm sure there are a few
> controllers out there that appreciate the same.
> For me I have learned just as valuable a lesson by talking to the controller
> without it having to have escalate in to anything else. I would suggest
> that anyone who has a beef with a controller try talking directly to that
> controller first. Then after that if you are not satisfied, consider
> calling a supervisor.

Brien K. Meehan wrote:
> Newps wrote:
>
>
>>No, the class D tower has no more authority in class E as he does in
>>class G.
>
>
> Who says he has no authority in class E or G airspace?

Our rule book.

Gruff controllers are just a part of flying life, and it's better for the
student to learn that hearing someone else get it than him. Every so often a
guy gets his coffee seriously ****ed in, and the Nth pilot who gets his goat
is going to catch some heat. Sui generis, this case sounds like the pilot
over-reacting a little, and I agree that a "360 for spacing" call* prior
would have been a reasonable precaution. But, CFIs often get to know the
voices on the other end of the line pretty well, and their "personalities,"
and if I'd gotten the bum's rush from this guy once or twice before in a
similar case, I might have responded acridly as well.

In the spirit of self-criticism however, I'd also look a little more closely
at the CFI's acceptance of the original clearance. The difference between 11
and 2 o'clock seems well within the margin of error, more so if the two
cherokees were not on very different headings. I never acknowledge following
traffic unless I'm absolutely sure I've got the right one. I fly in very
busy airspace and goof-ups simply have too much potential for disaster. I've
seen one very near mid-air and been far too close for comfort (<100') once
at my home field, both times right in the pattern at a Class D field with
radar repeaters and good controllers. FWIW I've heard lots of screwups on
the radio and never heard a controller chew a guy out quite that badly in an
area where authority was ambiguous.

* Controllers sometimes grumble when I announce that I'm doing something
when said announcement is not required, but my policy is that so long as
they have the right to file a deviation on me, then they are going to have
to live with my precautions. This is not to say that I always do it, but I
do it when my gut says so. For instance, I typically announce crossing a
runway when taxiing, but not at my home field, where I have a good feel for
the flow of things.

According to the Pilot/Controller Glossary, "Roger" means "I have received
all of your last transmission." It doesn't convey anything about the pilot's
intentions. A more appropriate response would have been "Wilco," which means
"I have received your message, understand it, and will comply." Sadly, too
few pilots use Wilco.

Bob Gardner

"Don Tuite" > wrote in message
...
> The CFI must have thought he was on a Usenet newsgroup.
>
> The sensible response would have been, "Roger."
>
> Don

Dial the number. I've done it plenty of times. If it's slow they'll talk to
you and on the radio at the same time, if not they'll have another
controller fill in for them for a minute.

PJ

--

============================================
Here's to the duck who swam a lake and never lost a feather,
May sometime another year, we all be back together.
JJW
============================================

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> How can you talk to the controller on the telephone while he is working
> traffic?
>
> PJ Hunt wrote:
> > But the point is, I have never been called by a supervisor, and I have
never
> > called a supervisor. I have always been able to speak directly to the
> > controller involved and settle it on the spot with out it going any
further.
> > I know I'm happy it's been done like that and I'm sure there are a few
> > controllers out there that appreciate the same.
> > For me I have learned just as valuable a lesson by talking to the
controller
> > without it having to have escalate in to anything else. I would suggest
> > that anyone who has a beef with a controller try talking directly to
that
> > controller first. Then after that if you are not satisfied, consider
> > calling a supervisor.
>

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Howdy,
>

Hi,


>
> I was interested in some other pilots' 'takes' on the following. I was
> up with a student a few days ago, when another CFI I know (flying out
> of the same airport I do) also with a student had an issue with an air
> traffic controller. We were both flying out of airport A, which is a
> non-towered airport near a fairly large city. Airport B is a class D
> (non federal towered) municipal airport about 10 miles South of airport
> A. The controllers at airport B have a reputation as kind of prickly.
> The following is the jist of the conversation:
>
> Cessna "Airport B tower, this is Cessna 123, 2000 off of airport A, 10
> miles North, inbound landing with kilo"
>
> Tower "Roger, Cessna, you will be number 2 for runway 21R, follow
> Cherokee traffic at your 11 O'Clock, you also have Cherokee traffic
> transitioning at your 2 O'Clock, and Skyhawk traffic inbound on the ILS
> for the parallel. Maintain visual separation."
>

"Maintain visual separation" is meaningless in this case as separation is
strictly the pilot's responsibility anyway.


>
> Cessna "Roger, have the Cherokee traffic, will follow him in, visual
> separation"
>
> A couple minutes later
>
> Tower "Cessna, what are you doing out there?"
>
> Cessna "Tower, that Cherokee isn't making much progress, we're making a
> couple 360s for spacing"
>
> Tower (in a nasty tone) "Negative Cessna! You're following the wrong
> Cherokee. You need my permission before making any maneuvers like
> that. If you are inbound, you need to be a direct heading *to* my
> airport. You can't be doing that kind of stuff without telling me."
>
> [pause]
>
> Cessna "Tower, I was following the Cherokee that was at my 11. Sorry
> if I got the wrong one. But sir, I am VFR, *outside* of your
> airspace...if I feel the need to do a 360 to maintain safe spacing,
> that's exactly what I will do...I'm outside of your airspace. I don't
> need your permission to do *anything* until I enter it. Turning 210 for
> landing now"
>
> The controller didn't say anything else, expect a gruff 'Cleared for
> landing 21R'. I haven't talked to the other CFI about this yet. The
> reason I am asking is that my student (already scared to talk to ATC)
> is even *more* scared now, and asked me about it.
>
> I told him that the pilot was technically right...if you are in
> uncontrolled airspace, and are responsible for maintaining visual
> seperation from other aircraft, then you can certainly make 'normal'
> maneuvers to do that. And I told him that a Class D tower controller
> doesn't have any say about what you do outside of his airspace.
>
> I also told him that it usually wasn't a good idea to have an
> altercation like that on the radio. That if the pilot wanted to talk to
> the controller about that, he should have waited until he was on the
> ground, and called the tower and asked to speak with a supervisor. I
> also told him that the other CFI 'probably' should have told the
> controller what he was doing as a matter of 'courtesy', and that if he
> wasn't absolutely sure which Cherokee to follow, he should have told
> the controller that he'd remain outside of his airspace until the tower
> told him the traffic was clear, and then turn in. Plus, it isnt a good
> idea to alienate the ATC guys in your own area....they can make life
> 'interesting' sometimes.
>
> But the tower controller didn't tell him to copy a number (altho maybe
> he got that on the ground. But I asked a few of the other CFIs I work
> with about this..most agreed with me, but a couple thought the pilot
> was wrong for various reasons.
> So...what is your take on this?
>

Pretty much the same as yours.

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
...
>
> Once in radio contact with ATC, whether inside of that controller's
> airspace or not, the pilot should get permission before doing anything
> like a 360. He (in this case) has no idea of the controller's traffic
> management plan.
>

What are you going to do if he denies "permission" for a maneuver you deem
necessary?

"Bill Denton" > wrote in message
...
>
> Just a somewhat uneducated guess...
>
> You were inbound to an airport and talking to tower. Would it have been
> too
> much trouble to simply key the mic and tell the controller that you were
> having spacing problems on the Cherokee, and ask for permission to do your
> 360's?
>
> Regardless of regulations, regardless of responsibility, isn't tower
> providing sequencing at that point? Common sense would tell you that under
> those circumstances, if everyone of the aircraft simply started flying
> whatever path they wanted to would be an extremely dangerous situation.
>

The tower established the sequence when he told the Cessna to follow the
Cherokee at his 11 o'clock. From that point on the Cessna is to do what's
necessary to follow the Cherokee.

> wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> I am not a CFI or even commercial rated (yet). I have had similar
> situations where I fly. I've had approach chew me out because my IFR
> plan had just expired (hey, who would have expected having to sit for
> 30 minutes waiting for 10 aircraft to land at a private field). Notice,
> not a clearance, but flight plan. We were going to activate in the air
> since it was VFR conditions. All we would have needed to do was contact
> FSS and re-enter it. The CFII beside me had been a controller and told
> me that the controller was out of line.
>

A proposed flight plan generally times out two hours after the proposed
departure time. Why didn't your ex-controller CFII prompt you to update the
time before that?

"A Lieberman" > wrote in message
...
>
> I had something similar happen to me, but I think it was a controller
> misunderstanding of my situation or he was having a bad day.
>
> I reside under charlie airspace. I took off, turn out toward the NE
> practice area. I listened, approach was jockeying several planes, so I
> maintained 500 feet below the floor of charlie airspace. I called in
> Approach 43L. Approach didn't acknowledge and about 1 minute later, I
> called in again Approach, Sundowner 12345L, one thousand 400 feet 2 miles
> north of Madison, headed to the NE practice area. Approach said to me,
> 43L, you are suppose to call before you leave the ground on 123.90.
> Squawk
> 0104. HUH??????? I am doing VFR to the practice area! Never had to call
> before wheels up before!
>

You don't have to call before departure, just before entering Class C
airspace.

"Brien K. Meehan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> 91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions. (b) Except in
> an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC
> instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.
>
> Presumably, the approaching aircraft was in Class E airspace, which is
> defined as controlled airspace. Doesn't that obligate the pilot to
> follow ATC instructions given to him?
>

The instruction was to follow the Cherokee. He followed that instruction.

"Brien K. Meehan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Who says he has no authority in class E or G airspace?
>

I do.

"Brien K. Meehan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> ... but if you call a controller and ask for service, you ARE talking
> to someone. Aren't you obligated to follow instructions given to you
> at that point? What regulation indicates otherwise?
>

What instruction do you believe was not followed in this scenario?

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
>
> How can you talk to the controller on the telephone while he is working
> traffic?
>

He multitasks.

Dave S wrote:
> > Who says he has no authority in class E or G airspace?
>
> Who says he DOES?

91.123(b) does. If he's ATC, and he issues an instruction, this
regulation obliges you to comply. There's no indication here (or
anywhere that I'm aware of) that you have to be in "his airspace" in
order for his instruction to be authoritative.

Newps wrote:
> Brien K. Meehan wrote:
> > Who says he has no authority in class E or G airspace?

> Our rule book.

I appreciate the hint, but could you be more specific?
Is this a rule book which places regulatory demands on pilots?

On 11 Dec 2004 22:57:18 -0800, "Brien K. Meehan"
> wrote in
. com>::

>Newps wrote:
>> Brien K. Meehan wrote:
>> > Who says he has no authority in class E or G airspace?
>
>> Our rule book.
>
>I appreciate the hint, but could you be more specific?
>Is this a rule book which places regulatory demands on pilots?

He's probably referring to FAA Order 7110.65:
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/ . However, he'll have to provide the
specifics.

Brien K. Meehan wrote:

> Newps wrote:
>
>>Brien K. Meehan wrote:
>>
>>>Who says he has no authority in class E or G airspace?
>
>
>>Our rule book.
>
>
> I appreciate the hint, but could you be more specific?
> Is this a rule book which places regulatory demands on pilots?

Nope, just like yours places no regulatory demands on me.

I try to remember this when flying. Pilots are people and have good days
and bad days. I've done stupid things. I've let my voice tone indicate
that I am annoyed. Fortunately I haven't ever let myself have a radio
altercation.

ATC are people too. They have good days and bad days. Generally, I swallow
the bad for all of the good that they do for me. Heck, you get to know the
voices and something of the people. When I was a new pilot coming home to
CRQ, one of the controllers there, Caroline, was like my hearing my mothers
voice when I made an initial call. It sure feels good to be home!

Ego has no place in the cockpit and that is the only thing that will start
an arguement in the air. Stay calm. "Unable" and "Wilco" are powerful
words. Do your best Chuck Yeagar and get on the ground. If you were in
danger, make a phone call. If you are just annoyed, chalk it up to somebody
elses bad day and try not to make it worse.

Regarding this specific case. I wasn't there but, my first preference would
have been S-turns. How can you follow a Cherokee when it is out of site
during 360s? I'd always check in for a 360, but that is just my own
preference

Slip'er.

Just go to chapter 7 of the .65 and you can see the rules for the
various airspaces.

Larry Dighera wrote:

> On 11 Dec 2004 22:57:18 -0800, "Brien K. Meehan"
> > wrote in
> . com>::
>
>
>>Newps wrote:
>>
>>>Brien K. Meehan wrote:
>>>
>>>>Who says he has no authority in class E or G airspace?
>>
>>>Our rule book.
>>
>>I appreciate the hint, but could you be more specific?
>>Is this a rule book which places regulatory demands on pilots?
>
>
> He's probably referring to FAA Order 7110.65:
> http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/ . However, he'll have to provide the
> specifics.
>
>

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 05:25:22 GMT, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> "A Lieberman" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> I had something similar happen to me, but I think it was a controller
>> misunderstanding of my situation or he was having a bad day.
>>
>> I reside under charlie airspace. I took off, turn out toward the NE
>> practice area. I listened, approach was jockeying several planes, so I
>> maintained 500 feet below the floor of charlie airspace. I called in
>> Approach 43L. Approach didn't acknowledge and about 1 minute later, I
>> called in again Approach, Sundowner 12345L, one thousand 400 feet 2 miles
>> north of Madison, headed to the NE practice area. Approach said to me,
>> 43L, you are suppose to call before you leave the ground on 123.90.
>> Squawk
>> 0104. HUH??????? I am doing VFR to the practice area! Never had to call
>> before wheels up before!
>>
>
> You don't have to call before departure, just before entering Class C
> airspace.

Hey Steven,

Yeah, I knew that, thus my reason for staying 500 feet below the floor of
Charlie airspace (see above).

I really think the controller may have had me mixed up with an IFR
departure or was simply having a real bad day.

Allen

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> > wrote in message
> ps.com...
> >
> > I am not a CFI or even commercial rated (yet). I have had similar
> > situations where I fly. I've had approach chew me out because my IFR
> > plan had just expired (hey, who would have expected having to sit for
> > 30 minutes waiting for 10 aircraft to land at a private field). Notice,
> > not a clearance, but flight plan. We were going to activate in the air
> > since it was VFR conditions. All we would have needed to do was contact
> > FSS and re-enter it. The CFII beside me had been a controller and told
> > me that the controller was out of line.
> >
>
> A proposed flight plan generally times out two hours after the proposed
> departure time. Why didn't your ex-controller CFII prompt you to update
the
> time before that?
>

Maybe there's a reason he's an EX controller.... :-)

Chip, ZTL

> After communicating with the controller you should follow their
> instructions and advise them of any deviation from those
> instructions.

And the instructions were, as BTIZ was the first to point out, "Maintain
visual separation". He was following that instruction. Right?

-Frank

Frankster wrote:

>>After communicating with the controller you should follow their
>>instructions and advise them of any deviation from those
>>instructions.
>
>
> And the instructions were, as BTIZ was the first to point out, "Maintain
> visual separation". He was following that instruction. Right?

That was one of the instructions and a completely useless one at that.
Like telling you to get out of bed in the morning.

Newps wrote:
> Just go to chapter 7 of the .65 and you can see the rules for the
> various airspaces.

There's nothing applicable there.

I still contend that a pilot must comply with instructions given to him
by any air traffic controller.

As a ridiculous example, if I'm south of Chicago and I contact SoCal
approach, and they tell me to follow a helicopter for landing at MIA, I
must comply.

91.123(b) supports this and is regulatory. Nothing else, including
7110.65 seems to specifically contradict this.

Newps wrote:
> Just go to chapter 7 of the .65 and you can see the rules for the
> various airspaces.

There's nothing applicable there.

I still contend that a pilot must comply with instructions given to him
by any air traffic controller.

As a ridiculous example, if I'm south of Chicago and I contact SoCal
approach, and they tell me to follow a helicopter for landing at MIA, I
must comply.

91.123(b) supports this and is regulatory. Nothing else, including
7110.65 seems to specifically contradict this.

"Chip Jones" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> Maybe there's a reason he's an EX controller.... :-)
>

No doubt, and it certainly isn't because being a CFII is more lucrative.

I take it you missed the 30 minute wait for landing a/c? By the time we
could contact the "local" class "C" approach we are to talk to, it had
expired by 5 minutes.

I had flown at that airport many times before (it was where I took my
PP check ride). Even on a busy day I'd never been sitting, "ready to
depart", for more than 10 minutes.

However, on the day in question, we had gone to the run-up area w/ NO
traffic on freq and no traffic had used the airport for 10 minutes. By
the time we finished run-up and radio settings, there was a tail
dragger on short final, followed by 2 C-150s, then a mix of bi-wing,
C-152, C-172 and a Beech. Remember, landing a/c have right of way, and
they were landing as tight as you legally could.

There is no RCO at that airport. Had we been given a clearance void,
things would have sure been different. But since we could depart VFR
and activate in the air...

The CFII was a former military controller and is now retired. Maybe he
was wanting to teach me how, with a real situation, to file and
activate in the air -- VFR Conditions, not IMC. We had actually
discussed this very situation when we realized that our filing would
expire before all the traffic cleared.

Later,
Steve.T

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> I take it you missed the 30 minute wait for landing a/c?
>

Nope.

C Kingsbury wrote:

> * Controllers sometimes grumble when I announce that I'm doing something
> when said announcement is not required, but my policy is that so long as
> they have the right to file a deviation on me, then they are going to have
> to live with my precautions.

Keep in mind that others are listening to you as well. I tend to provide
"extra" information when appropriate for other pilots. For example, when I
report at a very common reporting point for my "home" airport, I'll add an
altitude. The tower doesn't care, but the 73 other aircraft over the same
small lake might.

- Andrew

Brien K. Meehan wrote:

> Newps wrote:
>
>>Just go to chapter 7 of the .65 and you can see the rules for the
>>various airspaces.
>
>
> There's nothing applicable there.
>
> I still contend that a pilot must comply with instructions given to him
> by any air traffic controller.
>
> As a ridiculous example, if I'm south of Chicago and I contact SoCal
> approach, and they tell me to follow a helicopter for landing at MIA, I
> must comply.
>
> 91.123(b) supports this and is regulatory. Nothing else, including
> 7110.65 seems to specifically contradict this.
>

What Newps is tryin to tell you... is the controller doesnt have the
authority to give you instructions outside of his area/jurisdiction. The
"administrator of the FAA" is the authority behind 7110. Therefore he is
not "exercising air traffic control" in the areas outside of his
jurisdiction and authority.

In rebuttal to your ridiculous example, You would need to advise SoCal
approach that you will need to land for fuel prior to following the helo
all the way to Miami :P

Dave

Dave S wrote:
> What Newps is tryin to tell you... is the controller doesnt have the
> authority to give you instructions outside of his area/jurisdiction.
The
> "administrator of the FAA" is the authority behind 7110. Therefore he
is
> not "exercising air traffic control" in the areas outside of his
> jurisdiction and authority.

Yeah, I understand what he's trying to say.

This seems to be one of those things that everybody knows, but isn't
really stated authoritatively anywhere. I can't find that rule in
7110.65, but I'm not intimately familiar with it. I'd like to
corrected if possible.

Even so, that's somebody else's problem. I'd still have to comply with
a controller's directives, even if he's acting outside his authority.
The language of 91.123 doesn't account for appropriate ATC
instructions, it's says "in an area where air traffic control is
exercised." In my silly example, I might be in Peoria's airspace,
which is an area where air traffic control is exercised, so I'm
obligated to follow instructions given by ATC, even if it is SoCal
Approach.

.... but this is a good thing. A more prudent example might be
something that happened to me on my student long solo XC. I made a
list of controllers to talk to, and accidently got out of order. I
called Flint Tower when I meant to call Saginaw Tower. Flint Tower
told me to remain clear of Class D and contact "Approach" on 118.80. I
contacted Approach, which turned out to be Flint Approach, and got
everything straightened out quickly. But, in this case, Flint told me
to stay clear of their Class D (well, every Class D, I guess), and I
was obligated to do that, even though I was outside Flint's
jurisdiction.

Brien K. Meehan wrote:

>
> This seems to be one of those things that everybody knows, but isn't
> really stated authoritatively anywhere. I can't find that rule in
> 7110.65, but I'm not intimately familiar with it. I'd like to
> corrected if possible.

You're essentially asking me to prove a negative. Can't do it. My rule
book tells me what I can do in my airspace. There's no list of what I
can't do.


>
> Even so, that's somebody else's problem. I'd still have to comply with
> a controller's directives, even if he's acting outside his authority.

No, you don't. If a controller tries to give you something that the
rules do not allow then say unable. It's as simple as that.


> The language of 91.123 doesn't account for appropriate ATC
> instructions, it's says "in an area where air traffic control is
> exercised."

But you're examples are in areas where ATC is not exercised.



In my silly example, I might be in Peoria's airspace,
> which is an area where air traffic control is exercised, so I'm
> obligated to follow instructions given by ATC, even if it is SoCal
> Approach.

No.


>
> ... but this is a good thing. A more prudent example might be
> something that happened to me on my student long solo XC. I made a
> list of controllers to talk to, and accidently got out of order. I
> called Flint Tower when I meant to call Saginaw Tower. Flint Tower
> told me to remain clear of Class D and contact "Approach" on 118.80. I
> contacted Approach, which turned out to be Flint Approach, and got
> everything straightened out quickly. But, in this case, Flint told me
> to stay clear of their Class D (well, every Class D, I guess), and I
> was obligated to do that, even though I was outside Flint's
> jurisdiction.

He's exercising his control within his class D, he didn't do anything in
the class E.


>